TOPIC: Transmuting Time Expectations

I was reading the forum topic Jeff posted about "Mythic" tokens regarding costs to transmute one and I started thinking about what the expected time it would take a newer player to transmute different levels of tokens (I mean collecting enough gold for a 100K bar seems like forever). Has there been any discussion based of time expectations? Someone starting out is only getting 13 tokens a run (10 base with 3 treasure pulls). How long SHOULD it take to collect the necessary materials for a legendary transmutation or regular one? Are we talking a year or two? Or has this ever been considered?

You'll practically never be able collect 100,000 GP by doing runs at the basic level (3 treasure pulls) - but you'd also basically never collect enough to even make a Relic rarity transmuted token by running the dungeon and collecting token 10-pack + 3 treasure draws per run.

Rough math: A token 10-pack provides around 20 "points" worth of Trade Tokens in the TD Transmuter program, and lets say 3 treasure draws gets you an uncommon (3 points), and two rare (6 points) on average.

Then you'd be generating around 35 "points" worth of transmutable trade tokens per run, and one transmutable trade token (for example an Mystic Silk) requires 25 points of ingredients to create.

The recipe for 2024's Greater Eye Patch of Aesir requires 87 trade tokens, which amount to around 2175 "points" worth of transmuted trade ingredients*.

So you'd have to do around 60 TD runs, with a ticket cost of around $4,500, to collect enough trade items to transmute the materials required for a single Relic.

If you want to transmute your own Legendary, or Safehold series of tokens, and Mythics you're going to need do some combination of:
- Spend thousands of dollars on treasure boosting tokens and tickets and do large numbers of runs (low double digits per Legendary you want to craft with Charm of Avarice and other treasure enhancing ultra rare tokens)
- Spend thousands of dollars on large orders of tokens from TD (as a rule of thumb $2,000 worth of tokens from the TD store would give you roughly the materials needed to craft a Legendary - you'd be short a lot of Gold tokens still, but you'd have 8 Ultra Rare selections and a other incentive tokens which would be more than enough to trade for the gold you'd need)
- Engage in the secondary market buying large quantities of trade tokens

When I started playing TD I spent a long time mystified at how to "make the jump" to the UR+ collectors tier. I sat down once with all the tokens my group had ever received, over 5 years of play, and including spending $100-200 on supplemental token-10 packs and discovered I didn't have anywhere near the requirements to transmute a single Relic. It was sobering.

But I realized around then if you want to play TD with UR+ level tokens, you are just going to have to spend hundreds, if not thousands of dollars on tokens.


* This is a very simple analysis, I'm ignoring gold and Golden Fleece costs, and treating DS, MH, EB, OE, and AG as if they were generated the same as the other trade goods that require 25 points worth of ingredients and commons are 1 point, uncommons 3, and rares 6. It's just a rough estimate.

Thanks Matthew.

Sobering is right!

I really enjoy the True Dungeon and VTD has been a great additional way for a west coast player like me to get additional runs apart from GenCon. I figure step one was to get a complete set of TEs and then work on specific slots. I understand part of the business is selling tokens but I was just curious if True Dungeon considered an approximate/reasonable length of time it would/should take for someone to gather the resources through regular game play as part of token transmute costs.

You can enjoy TD at normal with the starter pack and hardcore with just rare, uncommon and common tokens. To get enough trade goods to get relic and more I don't believe one can reasonable expect to get there just by doing runs. There are folks who argue to keep the cost of transmutes for relic and more at high levels. Best bet is to get from secondary market for less than the cost to make.

Part of the reason for the inquiry is a big part of game in my eyes is the collection of treasure (tokens) to get upgrades for my character. I would like to, over a reasonable amount of time, progress to NM. In considering this I just came to the realization that there is not a method inside the game to transmute URs, basically capping a player at HC. The only way to make the jump is to get lucky with your pulls with an UR or better or turn to purchasing the tokens either from TD or another source. Is there a tread discussing the thoughts on transmuting for the yearly URs.

James Clausen wrote: Part of the reason for the inquiry is a big part of game in my eyes is the collection of treasure (tokens) to get upgrades for my character. I would like to, over a reasonable amount of time, progress to NM. In considering this I just came to the realization that there is not a method inside the game to transmute URs, basically capping a player at HC. The only way to make the jump is to get lucky with your pulls with an UR or better or turn to purchasing the tokens either from TD or another source. Is there a tread discussing the thoughts on transmuting for the yearly URs.

While you cannot transmute URs you do not generally need them to play on Nightmare. It takes several years of crafting the Enhanced (3 pointed star) and Exalted (4 pointed star) along with some quality completion tokens to get to that level since you need to replace a decent number of pack rares, but it is definitely doable. Here is a sample build I have been maintaining, and I'm pretty sure Endgame maintains a much more up-to-date and complete set of guidance for tokens you could target on your journey. If you get lucky and pull an UR like you mentioned it would help you specialize a bit more if you seek out a trade for a particularly useful UR.

I got deep into TD because I learned of the Ring of Heroism and I really loved the flavor of what went into crafting it and what it meant for me in the game. That got me working to build it over a couple years and then I was addicted. I believe the interest you're expressing aligns with what got me deeper into the game so I wanted to encourage you to stick with it! The high end of this game is very hard to reach, but the community is great and you can have a lot of fun taking it a step at a time.

Craft able relics are a great way to make the jump to nightmare if you want to truly "earn it". There's usually one every 4ish years, we're mid way though one right now actually (egg). If such things interest you getting a set of each years monster bits is a good place to start.

There are also dnd runs where the party grows their gear sets over multiple runs.

Hi James.

Thank you for that example build. I did notice that there were no TEs equipped. Would equipping a full set of TEs (I believe there are 6 now) push it back down to HC?

James Clausen wrote: Hi James.

Thank you for that example build. I did notice that there were no TEs equipped. Would equipping a full set of TEs (I believe there are 6 now) push it back down to HC?

Generally speaking, that particular build probably isn't quite ready for Nightmare. You roughly want minimums of:

+16 hit
30 damage per hit (so probably +25 damage)
18 Fort and Will save
50 hp.

With those stats you are still kind of hoping that you have a bard and cleric buffing you. Against a room 7 boss monster with AC 32, you'd be looking at needing a 16 to hit without buffs.

I have a thread with various build levels listed in them. This post in that thread contain builds that with heavy buffing from the party can probably make it through a nightmare run.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=571&id=257406#455700

James Clausen wrote: Hi James.

Thank you for that example build. I did notice that there were no TEs equipped. Would equipping a full set of TEs (I believe there are 6 now) push it back down to HC?

Most likely. That build is also 4th character level so it would be behooved by finding a way to increase that level. The build is not optimized, but I have lent it to friends who joined groups and they have been able to enjoy themselves on Nightmare. I should also say that I have only used the build I linked for in-person TD runs which tend to be easier since they are optimized for fewer rounds of combat. Endgame's point about higher targets would set you up for better success in VTD.

A build like this one would require a higher level of skill from the party mostly meaning that you would need to be more efficient in combat. Most combats at the end of a run will likely require at least one more round of combat than normal so your group would need to get through it quickly. Your sliders will need to likely be able to consistently hit the monster silhouette, your casters will have to get their tests done quickly and pick spells that are stronger against the monster, and you'll need to make sure people are ready to roll saving throws and initiative. Those small time sinks may be the difference between success and failure. Fortunately, building up over time will make Hardcore fun for many runs and would allow you and your friends to develop those skills.

Your first few runs in Nightmare would be complicated. Your chance of success will be lower than average, but I suspect you'll have a blast trying it out when you get to that point. You'll want to prepare with some consumables like potions and revivals. Your first time squeaking out a win in room 7 will be exhilarating. Until then enjoy Hardcore. If you play VTD you can sometimes get a DM to ad-lib the difficulty a bit to make it more challenging. For example, I've seen DMs use the hardcore stat block on a monster but the HP stat of nightmare. That can give you a taste of how things might go while still being approachable.

What difficulty are you planning on trying to get to consistently? I would work towards that and forget about any intermediary steps. This will avoid getting tokens and them trying to upgrade the token.

James Clausen wrote: Part of the reason for the inquiry is a big part of game in my eyes is the collection of treasure (tokens) to get upgrades for my character. I would like to, over a reasonable amount of time, progress to NM. In considering this I just came to the realization that there is not a method inside the game to transmute URs, basically capping a player at HC. The only way to make the jump is to get lucky with your pulls with an UR or better or turn to purchasing the tokens either from TD or another source. Is there a tread discussing the thoughts on transmuting for the yearly URs.

Everything you get in treasure can ultimately be traded. Maybe not at great rates, but monster bits, whatever latest TBO (treasure box only) promotion, uncommons/rares converted into trade goods, etc. can all be dealt if put enough effort into it. Get enough stuff together and can turn that into URs as people, myself included, have extra URs and might trade for TGs or gold or whatever.

And, high end pulls do happen. As mentioned, there are the URless relic multiyear transmutes.

A lot of URs are cheaper than tickets. For the price of one VTD ticket, I would imagine being able to find two useful URs. I'm not going to suggest that NM is really the level for people who don't have any URs, relics, or the other stuff above UR, but I'd be willing to play NM without UR+ at a full table of knowledgeable players who are tolerant of failure.

I would say that by far the easiest way to improve builds is to buy tokens. Not that I suggest doing it, but a 250 bundle gives both an UR for a build and generates a bunch of trade good fodder, which can then be supplemented with treasure to get to that point of transmuting more relics or Arcanum or whatever. If don't want to buy singles (one way or another) and don't want to trade/sell as you accumulate treasure/10-packs/completions from runs, think it's going to be pretty hard to get past a certain level of build.