TOPIC: Mythic Transmute Costs

What it actually costs to transmute a mythic item is going to be a large discussion item. Thankfully there is more time to refine the cost than there is to actually design the tokens, but that doesn't mean the cost should be ignored.

The guidance from Jeff is:

Jeff Martin wrote: ...they should cost about 50% more than a 2025 Legendary due to the big cost to make a Safehold I token. Let’s make the recipes the exact same for all Mythic tokens (except the Coin of Wealth).

The recipes for the Mythic tokens should be much like other Transmute tokens – using the standard Trade tokens. The only new thing I want to introduce to the whole Trade program is a 100,000 GP Bar that will be used in all Mythic token recipes.

The Coin of Wealth will likely be the only thing some Safehold I owners will make. That token should probably cost more than the other Mythics…maybe 2-3 times a 2025 Legendary.

We should design ALL Mythic tokens this year, and promise not to make any new ones in the future. That way folks can make informed decisions about what to make, and they don’t have to worry about new cooler Mythic tokens showing up later. The recipes will be fixed, too.

First I want to note that the guidance is somewhat conflicted. Gold + Wish ring (or extra 15k gold) is generally one of the most expensive portions of a legendary transmute - about 25% of the Sunstone is gold based. If a mythic is going to require a 100k bar, the gold cost alone of a mythic will be the cost of an entire 2025 legendary. For the spirit of the conversation going forward, I'm going to assume that Jeff really meant that Silk, Plank, AG, EB, etc should be 50% of a 2025 legendary. I'm also going to go on a limb and guess that Golden Fleece should not be reduced.

Personally, I think that Mythic items should include a legendary in the transmute cost, and should have a branch between using a legendary transmuter that came with SH1, or a more expensive option. This allows a player that made a SH1 to make up to 5 Mythic items, but they aren't gated at having to make and sell a second SH1 to build additional mythics. I suspect that building SH1s just for the mythic transmuters would have some undesirable impacts on how SH1s are built and sold in the future.

Let's pretend that we're making a mythic belt called Runewrap that grants +11 Strength. I'm thinking the recipe should look something like this?

Surtr’s Girdle of Fire Giant Strength
10× Alchemist’s Ink
10× Alchemist’s Parchment
1× Aragonite
10× Darkwood Plank
10× Dwarven Steel
3× Elven Bismuth
1× Enchanter’s Munition
5× Golden Fleece
5× Minotaur Hide
10× Mystic Silk
3× Oil of Enchantment
15× Philosopher’s Stone
100,000 GP Unobtanium Bar
plus ONLY ONE of the following:

Endgame wrote: What it actually costs to transmute a mythic item is going to be a large discussion item. Thankfully there is more time to refine the cost than there is to actually design the tokens, but that doesn't mean the cost should be ignored.

The guidance from Jeff is:

Jeff Martin wrote: ...they should cost about 50% more than a 2025 Legendary due to the big cost to make a Safehold I token. Let’s make the recipes the exact same for all Mythic tokens (except the Coin of Wealth).

The recipes for the Mythic tokens should be much like other Transmute tokens – using the standard Trade tokens. The only new thing I want to introduce to the whole Trade program is a 100,000 GP Bar that will be used in all Mythic token recipes.

The Coin of Wealth will likely be the only thing some Safehold I owners will make. That token should probably cost more than the other Mythics…maybe 2-3 times a 2025 Legendary.

We should design ALL Mythic tokens this year, and promise not to make any new ones in the future. That way folks can make informed decisions about what to make, and they don’t have to worry about new cooler Mythic tokens showing up later. The recipes will be fixed, too.

First I want to note that the guidance is somewhat conflicted. Gold + Wish ring (or extra 15k gold) is generally one of the most expensive portions of a legendary transmute - about 25% of the Sunstone is gold based. If a mythic is going to require a 100k bar, the gold cost alone of a mythic will be the cost of an entire 2025 legendary. For the spirit of the conversation going forward, I'm going to assume that Jeff really meant that Silk, Plank, AG, EB, etc should be 50% of a 2025 legendary. I'm also going to go on a limb and guess that Golden Fleece should not be reduced.

Personally, I think that Mythic items should include a legendary in the transmute cost, and should have a branch between using a legendary transmuter that came with SH1, or a more expensive option. This allows a player that made a SH1 to make up to 5 Mythic items, but they aren't gated at having to make and sell a second SH1 to build additional mythics. I suspect that building SH1s just for the mythic transmuters would have some undesirable impacts on how SH1s are built and sold in the future.

Let's pretend that we're making a mythic belt called Runewrap that grants +11 Strength. I'm thinking the recipe should look something like this?

Surtr’s Girdle of Fire Giant Strength
10× Alchemist’s Ink
10× Alchemist’s Parchment
1× Aragonite
10× Darkwood Plank
10× Dwarven Steel
3× Elven Bismuth
1× Enchanter’s Munition
5× Golden Fleece
5× Minotaur Hide
10× Mystic Silk
3× Oil of Enchantment
15× Philosopher’s Stone
100,000 GP Unobtanium Bar
plus ONLY ONE of the following:
Mythic Transmuter
Any Legendary

I think requiring TWO legendaries is silly/absurd. He said 50% more, not 200% more.

Otherwise, This sounds in line with what I was envisioning.

Endgame wrote: First I want to note that the guidance is somewhat conflicted. Gold + Wish ring (or extra 15k gold) is generally one of the most expensive portions of a legendary transmute - about 25% of the Sunstone is gold based. If a mythic is going to require a 100k bar, the gold cost alone of a mythic will be the cost of an entire 2025 legendary.

I noticed this as well. It seems reasonable to me that a Mythic should use a Legendary as a base for another recipe costing around 150% of trade goods and GP compared to a standard Legendary recipe. That to me feels like plenty already, bearing in mind that the base legendary already required a high transmute cost - I don't think there needs to be a second Legendary token or even a 100,000 GP bar in the cost.

Fizzikx wrote: I think requiring TWO legendaries is silly/absurd. He said 50% more, not 200% more.

Otherwise, This sounds in line with what I was envisioning.

The second legendary would not be required. It's an alternative to using a mythic transmuter.

If you've been watching the FS / Trade threads, Legendaries fairly often show up in then 600-700 range, and multiple have dropped below $400. The cheapest legendary I've seen is a Ta'Mores listed a 225, and I personally purchased 3 Legendaries myself at that sub $400 price (with Iktomi's being my cheapest purchase at ~275).

This is a long way of saying that I anticipate that having a 2nd legendary as a transmute option is probably not overly burdensome in overall cost.

Thanks endgame for starting this thread.

I will say you cannot use secondary prices of items that can be drawn in treasure as a cost starting point.

Take what the legendaries craft to cost from current auction prices right now from scratch. Marc D has provided an auction analysis spreadsheet for whole and it currently says legendaries take around $1500 to create. Adding Jeff’s 50% increase is roughly $2250 for a mythic token. This is why I don’t understand the argument of we need prices 3-5x higher. We really want mythic tokens to cost $5000-7500??? I can’t imagine people doing it when the highest token historically available is a Ro7P that used to be $3000 second hand.

Any cost multiplier even close to 3-5x will result in less than a few at most making the tokens. There will not be a group of 10 to do it.

I would be in favor of ramping up difficulty of Nightmare to current Epic levels and Mythic to doubling or tripling of current Epic levels.

Based on the "contest" in the last VTD to see how many your groups could kill by difficulty shows several groups playing under their power level and the need to change up combats to include more unique challenges like range only attacking, etc.

Endgame wrote:

Fizzikx wrote: I think requiring TWO legendaries is silly/absurd. He said 50% more, not 200% more.

Otherwise, This sounds in line with what I was envisioning.

The second legendary would not be required. It's an alternative to using a mythic transmuter.

If you've been watching the FS / Trade threads, Legendaries fairly often show up in then 600-700 range, and multiple have dropped below $400. The cheapest legendary I've seen is a Ta'Mores listed a 225, and I personally purchased 3 Legendaries myself at that sub $400 price (with Iktomi's being my cheapest purchase at ~275).

This is a long way of saying that I anticipate that having a 2nd legendary as a transmute option is probably not overly burdensome in overall cost.

I'd recommend against not requiring a Mythic Transmuter token by having an alternate recipe. One of the main design elements of the Safeholds is that you get a certain amount of transmuting per Safehold and have to buy another Safehold to make more. Short circuiting that kind of undermines the whole concept.

The key thing I wish to address here is:
What is the purpose of increased transmute costs? As I currently understand it there can be 2 primary purposes. A reward for our loving "dire whales" with a truly epic craft that requires work. A monetization strategy. If it is another reason, then I'd truly appreciate the insight into as then I'm just far off the mark with intention.

If our goal here is reward dire whales with something truly hard to chase, then in my opinion there should be stop gaps in place to ensure that this cannot be completed solely with money. There should be a "gimme" reward for doing Mythic runs that can be used to create tokens. As that rewards playing the game more often. It can have increased transmute costs too, but it needs a component that can't just be bought. Will some of these tokens appear on the after market giving a bypass? Sure, but they would be coming out at a linear rate directly related to the number of mythic players out there. Thus on averaging ensuring a requirement of building up over time.

If its monetization first, increased craft costs are certainly the way to do it. However, I think Endgame is correct that increased costs do come with inherent negative press in the current day and age, doubly so under the current economic conditions we have been in. I think the original idea of just having "Mythic Crafting Tokens" for doing Mythic runs was a good idea. I know there is the sentiment of people wanting a "Truly Epic Crafting Quest" and I think that really did fit the bill.

Matthew Hayward wrote: "I'm going to assume Jeff overstated the costs of trade goods by 3x, and reason from there" is not a sound foundation to arrive at useful conclusions.

His post already wasn't internally consistent, so I'm doing my best here.

Feel free to just focus on the proposed recipe, but it's all pretty useless recommendations without knowing WHY and what the GOAL is for what we're supposed to give feedback on.

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: "I'm going to assume Jeff overstated the costs of trade goods by 3x, and reason from there" is not a sound foundation to arrive at useful conclusions.

His post already wasn't internally consistent, so I'm doing my best here.

Feel free to just focus on the proposed recipe, but it's all pretty useless recommendations without knowing WHY and what the GOAL is for what we're supposed to give feedback on.

I see how you get there.

I agree it would be nice to know the why - past experience doesn't make me hopeful of getting that information - but maybe we will.

Flik wrote: Thanks endgame for starting this thread.

I will say you cannot use secondary prices of items that can be drawn in treasure as a cost starting point.

Take what the legendaries craft to cost from current auction prices right now from scratch. Marc D has provided an auction analysis spreadsheet for whole and it currently says legendaries take around $1500 to create. Adding Jeff’s 50% increase is roughly $2250 for a mythic token. This is why I don’t understand the argument of we need prices 3-5x higher. We really want mythic tokens to cost $5000-7500??? I can’t imagine people doing it when the highest token historically available is a Ro7P that used to be $3000 second hand.

There was a time when Jeff thought no one would buy 50 token-10 packs in a single purchase. He volunteered he'd dress as Patsy from Holy Grail and follow you around the first group that spent that much.

When Legendaries were introduced, no token had ever cost nearly so much, and they are now staples to high end collectors.

Why would another tier be any different?

I agree there must be some kind of a ceiling but it's clearly not at $1500 per token, and I'm really surprised you think:
A. You know what the ceiling is.
B. It's lower than $5,000.

If you talk to 90% of TD players and 99% of Gen Con attendees they "Can't imagine" spending $100 for a token. And yet here we are.

I don’t pretend to know what the mythical ceiling is but I am asking the question of who wants mythic tokens to cost $5000-$7500????

Will there be people that make $7500 mythic tokens? Yes I’m sure. Trent exists. Rich TD players exist. Are there enough to field a run? No clue. Jeff has stated his intentions multiple times…I just don’t understand people who want the cost to be triple or more just because “not mythic enough”