TOPIC: The Purpose of Mythic Tokens

This post is somewhat tangential to the Safehold I and Mythic item post here ( truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=762&id=258330&start=0 ), and the transmute cost thread posted here ( truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=762&id=258333#463409 )

The number one question I have regarding Mythic tokens is why do we need them and why do we as players want to build them? If we can answer these questions satisfactorily, I think we can have more success with the mythic program in general.

Let's start with question1:

Why do we need mythic tokens?

1) The safehold program has begun as a method to obtain the uber avarice item, and so we're committed to making some kind of rarity above legendary based on past commitments.

2) We need a target for the most invested players to continue to strive toward

3) Perhaps TD believes that without ever larger items to build, player interest and / or revenue will decline.

Item 3 is difficult for me to speculate on, so I'm going to focus on numbers 1 and 2. We're committed to making some kind of item past legendary, and we want to give goals for players.

Why do players want to build mythic tokens?

1) Bigger Numbers

2) Character building is fun

3) Players have something to look forward to in their build - they are never just "maxed out".

Given some of these points, let's think about this for a bit.

If the goal is that Mythic is just another step in character progression to get bigger numbers of no significant meaning (outside of the tokens being very expensive to generate revenue for TD), then the correct course is to probably pin the transmute cost at or below current legendaries. People will build them (or not) and it won't be any more meaningful than current legendaries are. Also, in this case, we shouldn't be pinned to just 12 mythics forever and ever - just add them as an extra step above legendary - ex: mythic bead bracelets with +5 beads. Make sure that there is a transmute path that doesn't involve making more SH1 to ensure that people just keep rolling through making mythic stuff.

If the goal is to do something really cool that makes a player excited for their uber character build, then I think Mythic items needs to be more than just bigger numbers. IMO, bigger numbers are getting kind of... boring(?). In the case of really cool items, IMO the transmute cost can be larger - I'm motivated to save for and build Mjolnir because it just ooozes awesome flavor, and I really, really want to be able to use the Summon Lightning! If this is the purpose of Mythic tokens, the design cycles should be very deep and should NOT be rushed. It's going to take time to get the tokens just right so they aren't just bigger numbers while also being something than can be handled in a 12 minute room by a combat DM that usually only deals with normal parties 80% of the time.

If the goal is just to give players long time goals / token targets so they aren't maxed out, the number one thing to focus on is transmute costs. I have no doubt there are TD players with annual household incomes that exceed $1,000,000. If this is the target audience, a token with an estimated creation cost of $3000-$4000 is not significant barrier and these players will be maxed out again in 2027.

Something else to consider is TD's overall reputation - you're suggesting creating tokens that have a higher value than many people's cars even if the transmute cost is 50% of a 2025 legendary. For those that know nothing about TD and haven't tried it, this kind of thing can cause "negative press" that TD is just a money grab, creep cycle game. I've both read that on places like the DnD discord as well as heard it on the plane to and from Gen Con. I want to mention it even if I don't have any specific other thoughts on it out side of this: The better implemented the Mythic program is, the easier it will be to avoid reputation hits.

In all the cases that I listed above, and any others I can can think of, I don't see how rushing through creating a fixed pool of 12 mythics is going to be the ideal path forward. Slow down, pick a well defined goal, and do it going forward with intent.

I like the fact you created this thread. I think it really gets at the heart of how this program moves forward.

Seriously, what is the audience for Mythic? And why are we doing it? Will it expand the player base? I find that highly unlikely. I don't think the current cost of legendary and Safehold tokens attracts very many people to the game, let alone the cost to just do a run. Yeah, I know, Gen Con will sell out. But how many of those people have any interest beyond normal, hardcore or in some case nightmare difficulty? I don't think Epic, let alone Mythic, attracts new people. Just my opinion.

If it's not to attract new players, then it should be to engage existing players and keep them interested in continuing their TD journey. I would think the last thing you want to do is create a situation where current players become frustrated and "move on."

I also worry that we keep hearing from the same 12-15 players in the forum and hopefully there is a larger group whose voices need to be heard. I encourage TD to add some questions to this weekends survey in epilogue. I really think those interested in Mythic all currently play VTD. Again, I might be wrong, but I'm not aware of anyone who continues to transmute for more tokens in order to do Epic and Mythic difficulty and ONLY plays in-person. Seems like if you go through the effort and cost, you'd like to play more than once or twice a year. Again, maybe I just don't get out enough and those people do exist.

The input should be weighted to those playing Epic and planning to do Mythic. Most of the comments I see are from folks who have no intention to play Epic let along Mythic. Those same folks are why nice things keep getting nixed.

Endgame wrote: If the goal is to do something really cool that makes a player excited for their uber character build, then I think Mythic items needs to be more than just bigger numbers. IMO, bigger numbers are getting kind of... boring(?). In the case of really cool items, IMO the transmute cost can be larger - I'm motivated to save for and build Mjolnir because it just ooozes awesome flavor, and I really, really want to be able to use the Summon Lightning! If this is the purpose of Mythic tokens, the design cycles should be very deep and should NOT be rushed. It's going to take time to get the tokens just right so they aren't just bigger numbers while also being something than can be handled in a 12 minute room by a combat DM that usually only deals with normal parties 80% of the time.

This is what would excite me the most personally.
General +1 to everything you've said though

edwin wrote: The input should be weighted to those playing Epic and planning to do Mythic. Most of the comments I see are from folks who have no intention to play Epic let along Mythic. Those same folks are why nice things keep getting nixed.

I think the purpose needs to be stated by Jeff, and then the comments can flow from there.

If the purpose is really just a "super exclusive insider's club for only the true dire whales", then I suggest abandoning mythic altogether. Replace it with a once/ year auction at gen con for the opportunity to create an artifact. Then just invite those special artifact holders to special events aimed just at them.

Personally I want mythic to be hard to get into (even if I don't make it, which I am committed to trying). IMO the core problem we have now is buying in. Whatever we do now can be thwarted with money.

IMO whatever mythic is should require both money & a lot of sustained effort. If it was a super hard to get into distant thing it would carry a different kind of value. For sure not something everyone would pursue but a real driver for some.

Also I am 100% in favor of a yearly arcane recipe auction for the mega donors.

Dave wrote: I also worry that we keep hearing from the same 12-15 players in the forum and hopefully there is a larger group whose voices need to be heard.

The same few overtake every development thread (often obnoxiously) and even go behind the scenes to get their way. Witnessed this scenario for years and many of us checked out from the forums/debates. Thank you for noting this, it enticed me to post lol.

At the end of the day, this is not going to hurt anything and will incentivize the old/loyal guard. This is not intended for new players. It's all optional, no one is forcing anyone to participate except the voice of FOMO some may have. For those with insane builds, Epic really became a cakewalk (If a party can beat to death monsters all equipped with the COMMON MUG from 2009, it tells you another difficulty level is needed for the small pool who play at this level. Enhancing and refining the run difficulty is a welcomed option and mulching the plethora of useless UR's out there is a good thing.

TD and Jeff rarely offer much if any guidance into what they are trying to achieve, other than what setting themes to match flavor to.

Based on observation of TD's behavior and statements around tokens, character cards, dungeon sets, etc. I have a broad impression that they are pursuing good player experiences by way of the rule of cool, and don't worry to much about the things lots of forum posters talk about (direct token sales, secondary token economy, overall balance, relative balance among classes, etc.). I could be wrong about this - maybe they do and for some reasons rarely discuss these things.

That is mainly just to say:

I highly doubt you're going to get a thesis statement from TD on what the objectives of Mythics are (beyond bromides like 'a fun way to reward our active collectors', anyway).


I'd still encourage people to hash out what they want and see if they can speak with a common voice in the design thread.

Re Mythic desirability: I would like to offer my opinion as a 5-year player who will be a potential customer for Mythic in the future but am not there yet.

I’m driven by what’s fun, which for me is not quite the same thing as merely adding plusses to my stats. Buffing to NM involved 1) getting tokens such as Charm:Spell Swapping and Mage Medallion that made my character more fun to roleplay and 2) letting me increasingly do my fair share while running with NM-level VTD groups, avoiding Normal runs and slowly but steadily replacing loaner gear.

If a Mythic will let my character do something interesting/cool he can’t do now – party-buff PUG newbie stats to the Hardcore level so we all get full XP, fly with limitations that let it be used in but not break combat (think Dr. Strange vs. Gargantos), etc. – then yes I’ll be willing to set aside the $$ to work towards one as a long term goal. However, if Mythic will just add + damage while facing monsters that subtract that damage, sorry, no thank you.

Just my personal opinion. YMMV.