TOPIC: Safehold I and Mythic Token Ideas => Part Two

Thank you all for the good feedback, and thanks for your patience on the slow reply. I am traveling and my online access is limited. I am trying to travel some during my 60th year on the planet, while working part-time, too. Thanks for your patience. I should not have brought up eliminating the HARDCORE Survivor buttons as it has nothing to do with the Mythic tokens. Let's discuss that later. I had just paid for a $5,000+ order for Survivor buttons, and it was on my mind.

Mythic tokens should have powers useful in non-Mythic runs – and some only worthwhile during Mythic runs. That way the tokens are always usable by those who spend lots in tokens to get them.

The general purpose of the Mythic tokens is to give big collectors something new and cool to do with all those Trade tokens they have been collecting over the years. It should also give them something fun to shoot for in the near future as they collect more Trade goods Also, the Coin of Wealth is being created to give back some slots that have long been tied up by Treasure Enhancers. I made a complicated set of rules last year to help accomplish these goals, but ultimately it was too cumbersome to implement.

Here is the current plan for the Mythic tokens:

We make only 5 Mythic tokens available as detailed below. This is being done so one Safehold I token will come with enough Mythic Transmuter tokens to create all Mythic tokens (since a Safehold I token comes with 5 Mythic Transmuter tokens). We don’t plan on making any more Mythic tokens available at a later date, but we may do so if a good reason arises. The Mythic token recipes won’t change. The five available Mythic tokens will include the Coin of Wealth, three Mythics that negate Mythic Monster abilities, and one Mythic token that allows for a second Neck slot item to be equipped (Ring of Glory).

Mythic tokens will be usable on any adventure, and they will have a non-Mythic power -- as well as a possible power especially designed to negate a Mythic-level monster's Mythic combat power.

When fighting monsters on Mythic DR, said monsters will have Mythic Power(s) that make them almost unsurmountable foes to characters without 1 or more Mythic tokens. Mythic monsters will have 1 (or possibly more) of these 4 Mythic Monster powers:

-- Special Auto Attack: The monster has a nasty attack that needs no to-hit roll nor is there a saving throw to negate or limit the effect. For example, a Mythic Troll might have a sweeping attack that automatically does 100 points of damage to all players. A Mythic Dragon might have a Sonic breath weapon that automatically does 100 points of Sonic damage with no saving throw allowed. A Mythic Charm of Fate means that a character’s AC will come into play or that a saving throw to reduce/negate damage is possible when a character is being attacked by a Mythic monster with a Mythic-level attack. Tokens like Cloak of the Shadowskin or a certain Psychic Ability can still help out characters in these situations, but since most are 1/game – the second attack will be very damaging.

-- Special Defense: The monster might be immune to Spells or other magicks – or it might not be vulnerable to any Melee or Ranged attacks. A Mythic Ioun Stone of Insight will allow the character to overcome this defense. The Mythic monster won’t be COMPLETELY invulnerable to all attacks, but it might only be harmed by Spells or Melee attacks.

-- Special Effect: The Mythic monster might have a strange automatic effect that makes it difficult to defeat in combat. For instance, maybe all damage it suffers to also suffered by the inflicting character in the form of Eldritch bolts from the sky, or maybe it has an aura that automatically causes each character to be polymorphed into rabbits if a character does a Melee attack against it. A Mythic Bead of Defiance will allow a character to saving throw against these weird Special Effects.

The secondary adventure powers of these tokens (in addition to the Mythic Monster ability negation mentioned above:

Mythic Charm of Fate - +8 to saving throws

Mythic Ioun Stone of Insight - +10 to any base damage result (adds +10 to number facing damage dot on combat board or adds +10 to the Spell damage shown on the character card) It does not effect any other damage results like Retribution damage or Scroll damage.

Mythic Bead of Defiance - + 8 to STAT of choice (noted in Coaching)
---
The cost of the Coin of Wealth will be more than the other Mythic tokens, but it will include all the lower TEs involved (tbd). The other Mythic items will have a cost of about 50% higher than a 2025 Legendary. The recipe to make the four non-Coin of Wealth Mythics will be balanced across all Trade tokens, and only the Coin of Wealth will require a 100,000 GP Bar.

Note that you must have a Safehold I token equipped to use any Mythic token in your adventure.

Thanks for your feedback!

Hi Jeff!

Thanks for all the thought and work you're putting into this, and letting us participate in the design process.

Some thoughts:

1) Why not let the Safehold I have 10 Mythic Transmuter tokens and have 10 different Mythic tokens available?

2) I don't really see the point of Mythic tokens at all if they're only 50% more expensive than Legendary tokens. The jump in cost from Relic to Legendary is significantly more than the jump from Legendary to Mythic. I would recommend the Mythic tokens be significantly more expensive, or they won't really feel that special at all.

3) It seems like anyone playing Mythic level is going to have all or nearly all of the Mythic tokens, especially if they are as affordable as you're planning. Given that, it seems kind of non-productive to introduce a special monster power that is negated by the Mythic tokens - is it really going to come into play at all? Maybe just have the Mythic token cut the ability in half but not totally negate it?

Simple and powerful.

Ioun Stone of Insight at +8 rather than +10 would mirror and extend ring of havoc +3 UR, +4 Relic, +6 Legendary, +8 Mythic, while also boosting all of melee/missile/spell rather than one of those.

Mythic Charm of fate at +7 rather than +8 would mirror and extend the Pharacus Cloak progression of UR->Relic +1, Relic->Legendary +2 more, Legendary->Mythic +2 more from a starting point of UR Charm of Luck.

Jeff - I like the ideas you posted and feel that this will allow groups of ten to form to play Mythic and would allow a person that Crafts a Safehold 1 to get Mythic tokens over time. The proposed powers work well since folks won't feel that they made legendary tokens and now regret that choice. People arguing over the value being too low are not ones who currently play Epic consistently and probably have no plans to play Mythic.

One thing that is missing is unique non-materialistic rewards for those surviving Mythic.

For the Ring of Glory: you May equip 2 neck slots token, TD may want to update the rules around Horn of Plenty and Amulet of Treasure Finding compatibility.

Today Horn of Plenty and Amulet of Treasure Finding can both be equipped (so long as you have a way to equip two neck slot items).

(Charm of Avarice can’t be used with either Horn of Plenty with Amulet of Treasure Finding, but the Horn and Amulet themselves have no such restrictions on each other.)

Or, if someone is willing to actually acquire and wear all the treasure stuff maybe they deserve +4 treasure over what others will get.

edwin wrote: Jeff - I like the ideas you posted and feel that this will allow groups of ten to form to play Mythic and would allow a person that Crafts a Safehold 1 to get Mythic tokens over time. The proposed powers work well since folks won't feel that they made legendary tokens and now regret that choice. People arguing over the value being too low are not ones who currently play Epic consistently and probably have no plans to play Mythic.

One thing that is missing is unique non-materialistic rewards for those surviving Mythic.

Maybe there shouldn't be any special reward for surviving Mythic, beyond the XP and Survivor Pins. That has caused problems in the past. Maybe we'll get people joining pickup groups with extra Safehold I tokens pressuring party members to play Mythic to get the extra rewards. That is behavior we've seen in the past, which resulted in the uncommon completion token being eliminated among other changes.

Jeff Martin wrote: Thank you all for the good feedback, and thanks for your patience on the slow reply. I am traveling and my online access is limited. I am trying to travel some during my 60th year on the planet, while working part-time, too. Thanks for your patience. I should not have brought up eliminating the HARDCORE Survivor buttons as it has nothing to do with the Mythic tokens. Let's discuss that later. I had just paid for a $5,000+ order for Survivor buttons, and it was on my mind.

Mythic tokens should have powers useful in non-Mythic runs – and some only worthwhile during Mythic runs. That way the tokens are always usable by those who spend lots in tokens to get them.

The general purpose of the Mythic tokens is to give big collectors something new and cool to do with all those Trade tokens they have been collecting over the years. It should also give them something fun to shoot for in the near future as they collect more Trade goods Also, the Coin of Wealth is being created to give back some slots that have long been tied up by Treasure Enhancers. I made a complicated set of rules last year to help accomplish these goals, but ultimately it was too cumbersome to implement.

Here is the current plan for the Mythic tokens:

We make only 5 Mythic tokens available as detailed below. This is being done so one Safehold I token will come with enough Mythic Transmuter tokens to create all Mythic tokens (since a Safehold I token comes with 5 Mythic Transmuter tokens). We don’t plan on making any more Mythic tokens available at a later date, but we may do so if a good reason arises. The Mythic token recipes won’t change. The five available Mythic tokens will include the Coin of Wealth, three Mythics that negate Mythic Monster abilities, and one Mythic token that allows for a second Neck slot item to be equipped (Ring of Glory).

Mythic tokens will be usable on any adventure, and they will have a non-Mythic power -- as well as a possible power especially designed to negate a Mythic-level monster's Mythic combat power.

When fighting monsters on Mythic DR, said monsters will have Mythic Power(s) that make them almost unsurmountable foes to characters without 1 or more Mythic tokens. Mythic monsters will have 1 (or possibly more) of these 4 Mythic Monster powers:

-- Special Auto Attack: The monster has a nasty attack that needs no to-hit roll nor is there a saving throw to negate or limit the effect. For example, a Mythic Troll might have a sweeping attack that automatically does 100 points of damage to all players. A Mythic Dragon might have a Sonic breath weapon that automatically does 100 points of Sonic damage with no saving throw allowed. A Mythic Charm of Fate means that a character’s AC will come into play or that a saving throw to reduce/negate damage is possible when a character is being attacked by a Mythic monster with a Mythic-level attack. Tokens like Cloak of the Shadowskin or a certain Psychic Ability can still help out characters in these situations, but since most are 1/game – the second attack will be very damaging.

-- Special Defense: The monster might be immune to Spells or other magicks – or it might not be vulnerable to any Melee or Ranged attacks. A Mythic Ioun Stone of Insight will allow the character to overcome this defense. The Mythic monster won’t be COMPLETELY invulnerable to all attacks, but it might only be harmed by Spells or Melee attacks.

-- Special Effect: The Mythic monster might have a strange automatic effect that makes it difficult to defeat in combat. For instance, maybe all damage it suffers to also suffered by the inflicting character in the form of Eldritch bolts from the sky, or maybe it has an aura that automatically causes each character to be polymorphed into rabbits if a character does a Melee attack against it. A Mythic Bead of Defiance will allow a character to saving throw against these weird Special Effects.

The secondary adventure powers of these tokens (in addition to the Mythic Monster ability negation mentioned above:

Mythic Charm of Fate - +8 to saving throws

Mythic Ioun Stone of Insight - +10 to any base damage result (adds +10 to number facing damage dot on combat board or adds +10 to the Spell damage shown on the character card) It does not effect any other damage results like Retribution damage or Scroll damage.

Mythic Bead of Defiance - + 8 to STAT of choice (noted in Coaching)
---
The cost of the Coin of Wealth will be more than the other Mythic tokens, but it will include all the lower TEs involved (tbd). The other Mythic items will have a cost of about 50% higher than a 2025 Legendary. The recipe to make the four non-Coin of Wealth Mythics will be balanced across all Trade tokens, and only the Coin of Wealth will require a 100,000 GP Bar.

Note that you must have a Safehold I token equipped to use any Mythic token in your adventure.

Thanks for your feedback!

Jeff

Can I make a suggestion editing the powers a bit? There is a concern of a token's main purpose is to overcome something only present in Mythic. That doesn't feel rewarding. Essentially, it becomes a "Token of Anti-Mythic Effect #1." If mythic effects were just significant expansions of regular effects then the tokens would feel more universally useful. A good prior suggestion is to allow mythic creatures to crit, have expanded crit ranges, and for the crits to do something unusual. If a mythic charm of fate reverted crit damage to regular damage 2/game plus had +8 to saves - that balances a new power and ways to work around it. I would recommend the Ioun Stone of Insight reduce Magic Resistance by 75% (ie not guaranteed) and reduces all opponent DR to wearer's attacks by 10. Then the mythic creature could have 100% magic resistance and DR of 30 and not be too much for the party with the stone. They could win without it but it would be hugely challenging.

I guess I'm saying edit things to be without mythic tokens, the fights may be exceedingly difficult to win. You could end up with a party where everyone just has the mythic wealth coin. They qualify to play mythic but if combats are then guaranteed losses if Token X isn't equipped then mythic becomes you have to have complete all mythic tokens in order to do the runs.

The ring of glory sounds great but isn't similar in power to the other tokens. It assumes the second neck slot will be the charm necklace to optimize a bead and charm build. Unless the charm necklace is reprinted the same year, it will have mixed value. I'd recommend reprinting that necklace and add an additional power similar to a necklace of adaptation (ie water breathing, immunity to gasses, etc..).

Definitely look forward to seeing these! I'm sending in my Safehold 2 UC transmutes in a few weeks and will get rolling for SH 1's as soon as they are available!

Fred

You only need a Safehold 1 to play Mythic. No Mythic tokens are required although you chance of survival may be near 0%.

Matthew Hayward wrote: For the Ring of Glory: you May equip 2 neck slots token, TD may want to update the rules around Horn of Plenty and Amulet of Treasure Finding compatibility.

Today Horn of Plenty and Amulet of Treasure Finding can both be equipped (so long as you have a way to equip two neck slot items).

(Charm of Avarice can’t be used with either Horn of Plenty with Amulet of Treasure Finding, but the Horn and Amulet themselves have no such restrictions on each other.)

Or, if someone is willing to actually acquire and wear all the treasure stuff maybe they deserve +4 treasure over what others will get.

I say let them equip all the TE for an extra 4 treasure. It would honestly help normalize the idea that not every build needs to have max TE too.

Mike Steele wrote:

edwin wrote: Jeff - I like the ideas you posted and feel that this will allow groups of ten to form to play Mythic and would allow a person that Crafts a Safehold 1 to get Mythic tokens over time. The proposed powers work well since folks won't feel that they made legendary tokens and now regret that choice. People arguing over the value being too low are not ones who currently play Epic consistently and probably have no plans to play Mythic.

One thing that is missing is unique non-materialistic rewards for those surviving Mythic.

Maybe there shouldn't be any special reward for surviving Mythic, beyond the XP and Survivor Pins. That has caused problems in the past. Maybe we'll get people joining pickup groups with extra Safehold I tokens pressuring party members to play Mythic to get the extra rewards. That is behavior we've seen in the past, which resulted in the uncommon completion token being eliminated among other changes.

Assuming mythic was appropriately hard, I was thinking it might be cool to do something like the the first group to clear mythic at each con gets a unique but otherwise unremarkable completion token.

That way you could have something to push for but once the initial push was over there wouldn't be a reason to push pugs to try for it. This entirely hangs on the idea of mythic being truly brutal to the point where even max geared groups couldn't count on the win.

Matthew Hayward wrote: For the Ring of Glory: you May equip 2 neck slots token, TD may want to update the rules around Horn of Plenty and Amulet of Treasure Finding compatibility.

Today Horn of Plenty and Amulet of Treasure Finding can both be equipped (so long as you have a way to equip two neck slot items).

(Charm of Avarice can’t be used with either Horn of Plenty with Amulet of Treasure Finding, but the Horn and Amulet themselves have no such restrictions on each other.)

Or, if someone is willing to actually acquire and wear all the treasure stuff maybe they deserve +4 treasure over what others will get.

Matthew's point about the unexpected effect of having multiple neck slot items which were designed expecting there to be only a single slot likely extends to other neck slot items. It may be worth considering that some neck slot items may need errata to prevent them from doubling up (e.g. someone equipping both the Relic and Legendary class necklaces).

Fred K wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: Thank you all for the good feedback, and thanks for your patience on the slow reply. I am traveling and my online access is limited. I am trying to travel some during my 60th year on the planet, while working part-time, too. Thanks for your patience. I should not have brought up eliminating the HARDCORE Survivor buttons as it has nothing to do with the Mythic tokens. Let's discuss that later. I had just paid for a $5,000+ order for Survivor buttons, and it was on my mind.

Mythic tokens should have powers useful in non-Mythic runs – and some only worthwhile during Mythic runs. That way the tokens are always usable by those who spend lots in tokens to get them.

The general purpose of the Mythic tokens is to give big collectors something new and cool to do with all those Trade tokens they have been collecting over the years. It should also give them something fun to shoot for in the near future as they collect more Trade goods Also, the Coin of Wealth is being created to give back some slots that have long been tied up by Treasure Enhancers. I made a complicated set of rules last year to help accomplish these goals, but ultimately it was too cumbersome to implement.

Here is the current plan for the Mythic tokens:

We make only 5 Mythic tokens available as detailed below. This is being done so one Safehold I token will come with enough Mythic Transmuter tokens to create all Mythic tokens (since a Safehold I token comes with 5 Mythic Transmuter tokens). We don’t plan on making any more Mythic tokens available at a later date, but we may do so if a good reason arises. The Mythic token recipes won’t change. The five available Mythic tokens will include the Coin of Wealth, three Mythics that negate Mythic Monster abilities, and one Mythic token that allows for a second Neck slot item to be equipped (Ring of Glory).

Mythic tokens will be usable on any adventure, and they will have a non-Mythic power -- as well as a possible power especially designed to negate a Mythic-level monster's Mythic combat power.

When fighting monsters on Mythic DR, said monsters will have Mythic Power(s) that make them almost unsurmountable foes to characters without 1 or more Mythic tokens. Mythic monsters will have 1 (or possibly more) of these 4 Mythic Monster powers:

-- Special Auto Attack: The monster has a nasty attack that needs no to-hit roll nor is there a saving throw to negate or limit the effect. For example, a Mythic Troll might have a sweeping attack that automatically does 100 points of damage to all players. A Mythic Dragon might have a Sonic breath weapon that automatically does 100 points of Sonic damage with no saving throw allowed. A Mythic Charm of Fate means that a character’s AC will come into play or that a saving throw to reduce/negate damage is possible when a character is being attacked by a Mythic monster with a Mythic-level attack. Tokens like Cloak of the Shadowskin or a certain Psychic Ability can still help out characters in these situations, but since most are 1/game – the second attack will be very damaging.

-- Special Defense: The monster might be immune to Spells or other magicks – or it might not be vulnerable to any Melee or Ranged attacks. A Mythic Ioun Stone of Insight will allow the character to overcome this defense. The Mythic monster won’t be COMPLETELY invulnerable to all attacks, but it might only be harmed by Spells or Melee attacks.

-- Special Effect: The Mythic monster might have a strange automatic effect that makes it difficult to defeat in combat. For instance, maybe all damage it suffers to also suffered by the inflicting character in the form of Eldritch bolts from the sky, or maybe it has an aura that automatically causes each character to be polymorphed into rabbits if a character does a Melee attack against it. A Mythic Bead of Defiance will allow a character to saving throw against these weird Special Effects.

The secondary adventure powers of these tokens (in addition to the Mythic Monster ability negation mentioned above:

Mythic Charm of Fate - +8 to saving throws

Mythic Ioun Stone of Insight - +10 to any base damage result (adds +10 to number facing damage dot on combat board or adds +10 to the Spell damage shown on the character card) It does not effect any other damage results like Retribution damage or Scroll damage.

Mythic Bead of Defiance - + 8 to STAT of choice (noted in Coaching)
---
The cost of the Coin of Wealth will be more than the other Mythic tokens, but it will include all the lower TEs involved (tbd). The other Mythic items will have a cost of about 50% higher than a 2025 Legendary. The recipe to make the four non-Coin of Wealth Mythics will be balanced across all Trade tokens, and only the Coin of Wealth will require a 100,000 GP Bar.

Note that you must have a Safehold I token equipped to use any Mythic token in your adventure.

Thanks for your feedback!

Jeff

Can I make a suggestion editing the powers a bit? There is a concern of a token's main purpose is to overcome something only present in Mythic. That doesn't feel rewarding. Essentially, it becomes a "Token of Anti-Mythic Effect #1." If mythic effects were just significant expansions of regular effects then the tokens would feel more universally useful. A good prior suggestion is to allow mythic creatures to crit, have expanded crit ranges, and for the crits to do something unusual. If a mythic charm of fate reverted crit damage to regular damage 2/game plus had +8 to saves - that balances a new power and ways to work around it. I would recommend the Ioun Stone of Insight reduce Magic Resistance by 75% (ie not guaranteed) and reduces all opponent DR to wearer's attacks by 10. Then the mythic creature could have 100% magic resistance and DR of 30 and not be too much for the party with the stone. They could win without it but it would be hugely challenging.

I guess I'm saying edit things to be without mythic tokens, the fights may be exceedingly difficult to win. You could end up with a party where everyone just has the mythic wealth coin. They qualify to play mythic but if combats are then guaranteed losses if Token X isn't equipped then mythic becomes you have to have complete all mythic tokens in order to do the runs.

The ring of glory sounds great but isn't similar in power to the other tokens. It assumes the second neck slot will be the charm necklace to optimize a bead and charm build. Unless the charm necklace is reprinted the same year, it will have mixed value. I'd recommend reprinting that necklace and add an additional power similar to a necklace of adaptation (ie water breathing, immunity to gasses, etc..).

Definitely look forward to seeing these! I'm sending in my Safehold 2 UC transmutes in a few weeks and will get rolling for SH 1's as soon as they are available!

Fred

+1. I appreciate the points you are trying to raise here. I believe this is in the spirit of what Jeff is generally describing, but does a good job of refining the ideas further.